Bonny Snowdon 00:06
Hello, I'm Bonny Snowdon, ex corporate person, a mother turned successful artist entrepreneur. It wasn't that long ago though that I lacked the confidence, vision and support network to focus on growing my dream business. Fast forward past many life curveballs, waves of self-doubt and so many lessons learned and you'll see Ignite, my thriving online colour pencil artists community, a community that changes members lives for the better and gives me freedom to live abundantly whilst doing what I love and spending quality time with my beloved family and dogs, all whilst creating my best artwork with coloured pencils, and mentoring others to do the same. But this life wasn't always how it was for me, it used to only exist in my imagination. I've created the It's a Bonny Old Life podcast to help increase people's confidence, share mine and my communities experience and hope through fascinating personal stories, champion the other amazing humans in my personal, professional and membership community, and create another channel through which I can support others to realize their dreams. If you're a passionate colour pencil artist, or an aspiring one who's looking to create their best work, and a joyful life you love, you're in the right place. Grab a cuppa and a custard cream, let's get cracking.
My guest this week is Steph West, a social coach supporting neurodivergent students for the last 20 years. Our conversation was fascinating and whilst I was really keen to ask questions, and delve further, I was also incredibly conscious not to offend with my ignorance on the subject. I feel after our conversation that we should have a staff or a couple of staffs available in every school. What a difference that would make. Hello.
Steph West 01:44
Hello.
Bonny Snowdon 01:46
Hi Steph.
Steph West 01:46
Hello, Bonny.
Bonny Snowdon 01:51
Oh, how nice to meet you.
Steph West 01:54
Oh, you too. Thank you.
Bonny Snowdon 01:56
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you.
Steph West 02:00
Thank you. I'm excited to have the connection to be here.
Bonny Snowdon 02:04
What I'd like you to do is just give me a brief overview of who you are, what you do and obviously, I think we've sort of connected through one of the Business Mastermind, I think it's James Webb Moore's mastermind. Is it the next level?
Steph West 02:22
I mean, just BBD.
Bonny Snowdon 02:24
BBD, yes. Yeah, I just find it really interesting talking to people who do something sort of slightly different. And not slightly different, but do something that I've never heard of before. So yeah, it'd be so nice just to hear what you do and why you do it and how you do it.
Steph West 02:42
Yeah, absolutely. So basically, my short version is that I teach autistic and ADHD kids how to make friends. So that's my short version. The longer version of that is that, as of today, I have an in person business. I'm in Texas, and kiddos and teenagers come to my program. And I have a curriculum that I've created, that we go through and we have a different lesson each week. And we also have game time together. So my intention is to help my students become more socially aware, it does not have anything to do with changing who they are, or changing how they show up in the world. It has to do with helping them understand social context, a little bit better than they do currently. And then in my program, it automatically provides a community and a group and a tribe and the kids all come together and hang out together every week, they really get along with each other, they find other kids that they have things in common with and enjoy hanging out with. And so it creates a very positive environment. A lot of times things like social skills tend to be addressed from a deficit based model. And so the kids think there's something wrong with me, why am I doing this, and no one else is doing this and it's focused on the things that the kids are doing wrong. And in my program, there's no such thing as wrong. It's just about helping the kids understand how different brains perceive different things, so that we can be more aware of the things we do and say and how they may be perceived by other people. And it focuses on the concept of our reputation, which is something that most of my students don't have a concept of.
So I help them recognize that what other people think about us comes from the things that we say and do. And why that matters is because what other people think about us feeds directly into how they treat us. And so a lot of times my students are saying and doing things that they think gives them one specific reputation, but actually is completely derailing them, and they just have no idea. So that's the big core component of my program, it is helping the kids think about what they want their reputation to be and then how do we make that happen? How do we get there? What are the things that they're doing that are getting in their own way that they really have no idea about? So that's my program. I'm currently transitioning to an online model, so that I can work with students who are anywhere. I also coach other people in starting their own club like mine. So people from anywhere if they want to start their own social club like mine, they can become licensed in my curriculum. And I also do coaching with them to help them get their business up and going. I am what I call an accidental entrepreneur. I never intended to run a business never. I just realized it was the only way for me to do what I do. And so it's been a really challenging journey. And I would like to make it much less challenging for other people who are interested in doing something similar. So that's what I do.
Bonny Snowdon 06:28
So I've got so many questions. I'm guessing that there was a reason why you started this, what kind of got you wanting to do this, amazing to say, it is amazing. I have quite a few nieces and nephews who are diagnosed as sort of autistic or with ADHD and I know what a struggle they've had. What we have in the UK, well, I'm sure that there are some amazing services. But the services that we get given, generally, aren't particularly brilliant. I know that they've really struggled to get help with stuff. So this is a really important conversation, this is a really important thing that you do.
Steph West 07:11
Thank you. Yeah, it's kind of a roundabout story of why I do what I do. It started because I was in special education. I was a teacher in the school system, and I then became an administrator. I'm a behaviour specialist. I'm an autism specialist. And I realized that, because this is my skill set, this is what I do, I would get called to the really extreme situations. So kids who were eloping, kids who were aggressing, kids who were being really disruptive, that's who I would get called to support. But I would notice all these other kiddos that were not doing those things, but had no friends, or that nobody was paying attention to or even that the other kids were actively avoiding. And because they were not displaying these more extreme behaviours, I call them floaters. They were just floating through day to day, month to month, year to year, and you can see the same kids. And I would just watch these kids and recognize that they were really struggling socially. And there are not supports for that. There are not supports for social, and I absolutely get it. It's such an abstract thing that very few people know what to do about it. It's so abstract. And so it's never the case that school systems don't want to help. It's never the case that they don't care. It's that it's such an abstract thing. And very often, at least here in the US, special education teachers are expected to teach social skills.
But I can tell you, they have no idea how to do that. Very few people I've ever met really know how to do that. So we're asking people to do something that they don't even really know how to do. And there's all of these mass produced curriculums that in my opinion, are very basic, very surface, very compliance based, which is against everything I believe in. I'm a very non-compliant person myself. So I'm not about to expect my kids to follow the rules and be compliant. So that's how I started, is just realizing that I had the ability and the skill set to create something to help these kids. So that's how I started in the process. It was seven years ago. This month is my seven year anniversary of my business. Along the way I was diagnosed with ADHD, so it just made everything come full circle, I didn't really struggle a lot socially. So I don't have that relationship. But I had a really challenging childhood in my home life school. I did really well in school because I rely on structure.
So the structure of school was beautiful for me. But I had a really challenging home life, I had a really difficult relationships with my parents, traditional discipline, which did not work for me. So it's very personal. For me, what I'm doing with my students is very personal. My new online program also has support for parents, because that's also very personal for me that if we have neurotypical parents and neurodivergent kids, there's a disconnect. Just by nature, there's a disconnect. And so I see my role as helping bridge those connections, helping kids understand their parents better and helping parents understand their kids better. And the same with teachers, and therapists, just helping everybody understand everybody else a little bit better, because I tend to straddle both worlds, I am neurodivergent. But I also exist in a neurotypical world and understand both realms. And so I see my goal is bridging the gap and helping bring the pieces together.
Bonny Snowdon 11:44
It's always quite, it's always difficult, isn't it? Particularly with social cues, and being able to understand because we as humans, we go into the school system, and it's not always the best suited. I know, from listening to my sisters, and friends of mine, they've got children in mainstream school, and there is no leeway. There's the curriculum, that's it, it is a one size fits all. If you're really good, and you're really academic, you're just kind of off you go. If you're really disruptive, you will probably get quite a lot of attention. And if you're just sort of somebody, like you said, just floating through you kind of don't get very much. I know that's very generalized and I know there are some schools who are exception. But there are, I think, an awful lot of children who are failed. And the home-schooling is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. I know, my sister has home-schooled. I know a friend of mine has home-schooled. It's really difficult. Mine are through school now. But as a parent there isn't really an alternative, particularly if you work on stuff like that. And if you do have a child who doesn't conform to the norm, what do you do? And it is such a struggle because that spectrum is huge.
Steph West 13:14
Yeah, I have to say that in defence of the public school system. I don't want to say there's no way. It would be incredibly difficult for a system as large as the public school system to be able to accommodate everybody. So definitely public school system is a very antiquated system. It was created to teach us how to be factory workers and follow directions and stay in line and raise our hands and follow a schedule. Everything about the public school system is very artificial. In our adult life, we don't have to ask somebody to go to the bathroom. We don't have 45 minute blocks of work time. The whole system is very artificial. But also because it's so large, and it's required and necessary, it has to meet the average. It has to meet the typical. So I will say that it's understandable to me why the school system is the way that it is. But yes, absolutely. I used to run my own private school through my business before COVID. And the challenge with it is that it was so expensive. I mean, that I didn't even charge as much as I needed to, for the school to be financially stable. And I felt really uncomfortable charging what I was charging. So it's that part of when it comes to supporting our kids is to give them the support they really need. It's very expensive.
So there's all kinds of different factors that go into education. There's also if you think about the average educator, the typical educator is neurotypical and middle class neurotypical. And so even from that perspective, there's not always an awareness or an understanding of neuro divergence. So there's just all these factors. It's this scale of public education that keeps it from being able to support the needs of different kids. But yes, you end up with private school, which is out of pocket private tuition. You end up with home-schooling which is very common in the special education world. But again, that is completely dependent on parent's ability to make that work either themselves or finding a program that their kiddo can go to. It's also a lot of neurodivergent kiddos struggle with mental health challenges related to their experience in school, you get school avoidance, you get shutting down, and you get acting out because of their experience in school. So I absolutely agree with all that. I'm actually on the board of a charter school district in my city. I'm not sure how charters work for you guys, but they are public schools. They can have special focuses and special interests and things like that.
Bonny Snowdon 16:28
We have something similar, well, they're called academies, and that's what they were supposed to do. They were supposed to be for the children who maybe weren't academic. Sadly, they haven't ended up or the ones that I know about haven't ended up like that. And they've got all of these amazing facilities, woodworking shops, kitchens, and they have just gone down the academic route. And all of these facilities aren't used. That's my personal experience with something. And that's really sad, because there are an awful lot of children. I wasn't academic. I was very bright but I hated school. I was in a grammar school, hated it. I absolutely hated it. And I was happiest when I started working at 17. I'm not saying the school failed me. It just wasn't a very academic school. And if you weren't in the top stream, you were kind of just left to --
Steph West 17:31
Find your own voting.
Bonny Snowdon 17:32
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Steph West 17:33
I think it's so because the charter schools in the US, they still receive federal funding, and they still have all the same academic requirements as a public neighbourhood school. They're still all the same expectations of outcome. Kids going to college, kids passing the assessments, all that stuff is still the same. And so what I find is that the population tends to be different, the population tends to be more of my students, if you will. But the expectations are all still the same. But also the staff tends to be different. So I do find that the students and the staff tend to be more geared toward non-traditional students. But yes, the curriculum, the expectations, the outcomes, all of that is still the same, because it's still a publicly funded school. I think that's the biggest challenge I've found is that the system is not set up to support our kids. The staff typically just doesn't have the awareness or the ability to support our kids. So yeah, it definitely becomes something where outside support is needed. In even a lot of the schools here there's a specific type of therapy that is approved, but it's very compliance based. It's very much about teaching kids that what they're doing is not right, not normal, and not okay and here's how they should be doing it instead.
It's very compliance based. Number one, it very much lends itself to mental health struggles when you feel like there's something wrong with you, when you feel less than, when you feel like you're not doing things right or you're not capable of doing things right. It definitely lends itself to some mental health challenges, potentially. But it also really squashes the individuality of our kids. I mean, we're all amazing, wonderful human beings. And it really squashes our kids individual thought processes and creativity and just all the things that make them so unique when they're being trained to not be so unique. So, yeah.
Bonny Snowdon 20:02
Yeah. And so I'm guessing somebody who doesn't have a family or anybody near them who are sort of on the spectrum I guess, they have a preconceived idea of what that neurodivergent person. Or they're going to display this trait, they're going to display that trait. And actually, you could be further from the truth. Because like every single one of us, we all have a completely different personality, and we'll do different things. Do you find that there is something that is relatively a common behaviour? Or are they all just very, very different? I'm very conscious about it that I don't know a huge amount, and I don't want to offend anybody with one. I'm very conscious that I don't want to say something that somebody then if they listen to this and takes offense, because that's never ever my intention. Bloody Bonny, she has no idea what she's talking about. I've seen the struggles that my sisters had. I've got a friend of mine whose son is going through mainstream, he's going through his exams at the moment, and I’ve seen how he usually copes incredibly well with stuff. And then not through the exact process. But my intention is never to offend anybody. You've got to be very careful with your words, don't know? You have to be so careful with your words. So if I have said something I shouldn't have done, I apologize.
Steph West 21:35
No, that's a really interesting point. I actually just met somebody over the weekend, who was really interested in what I do, but has no context for it. And he was kind of doing the same thing. He was trying to ask me questions about it, but without saying things that might be offensive or incorrect or stereotypical. And it was interesting how I was finding that I was getting defensive of my kids trying to answer his questions. Because absolutely he has no connection to anybody who's autistic or ADHD. I think ADHD is more easier for people to identify and relate to even learning disabilities, right? So, neuro divergence is a huge spectrum. Those are just the most commonly identified areas. Definitely, when I talk about what I do, a lot of people have the preconceived notion that autistic kids are -- like this person actually said to me, he was talking about kids who are rocking and flapping. Which I actually rock. It's very soothing. Sometimes when I feel anxious or upset, I will find myself rocking. It's very soothing. I get very easily excited about stuff. I'm not sure that I flap per se, but I definitely like jump and hop sometimes when I'm excited.
But it just showed me that that is the typical perception of autism. So my curriculum is very cognitively based and language based. And so the students in my program have to have average to above average cognition and verbal skills, because we're we are having deep intellectual discussions about social context. The majority of students in my program are in mainstream education, with varying levels of support. I have students in my program that are way more intelligent than me, so many of them are just hyper intelligent. So there are definitely preconceived notions that are often wrong. Yes, there are people on the autism spectrum that require lifelong support, that are not able to be in a traditional school model, that are nonverbal, things like that. It's a spectrum just like everything else. But I think people's typical perception of autism tends to be students who are cognitively challenged, and even so many of my students, other people would not recognize that they're autistic. It would take somebody who knows autism to be able to see that they're autistic.
A lot of my students were diagnosed late, because it's not obvious that they're autistic. It's just obvious that they are struggling with different things. And when kids are in that situation, even adults when you're in that situation, it makes things even more challenging because people expect you to be an act quote unquote, normal. And so you look normal, you sound normal, you're in the class right next to me, why are you saying this thing? Or doing this thing? Or why do you keep talking about robots? Or why are you so close to me? Like, there's just people expect normal behaviour out of people who look normal. And so it actually makes things even more challenging for my kiddos, one of the most common things that I hear is students will say to me, "Steph, all the other kids think that I'm annoying, but I don't know why." That's super common for my kids, they recognize that other kids don't like them, don't want to be around them, avoid them, ignore them, but they don't know why. And other kids think that they're doing it on purpose, or that they should know better, or that kind of thing. So one of the most common examples I'd love to give is, most people in the world want to have a reputation for being smart. We all would like other people to think that we're knowledgeable about something. And it's very prevalent for my students that they want other people to think that they're smart. And so one of the things that they will often do to try to show how smart they are, is correct other people. How does that work out?
But you can see the train of thought, you can see how they feel like that would make other people recognize how intelligent they are. When in reality, it's the opposite. It makes other people think they're rude, annoying, whatever. That's a lot of what happens with my kids is they're saying and doing things that they think make them seem smart, or funny or friendly. And it really has the complete opposite effect. But again, because they look quote unquote, "typical normal" people are confused by that. People don't understand. People think they're doing it on purpose, people think that they are selfish, and arrogant and weird. And really, they're just trying to do what they think gives them the reputation that they're looking for. So I think that's the challenge with so many of my students is that, they have the intellectual ability, similar to everybody else that they're around. It's just they don't understand the social constructs and social situations and other people's expectations and how certain social contexts work. And so they end up coming across as awkward or weird or annoying, when nobody ever wants a reputation for being annoying, or awkward or weird. The only time that we want a reputation for being weird, is when we intentionally choose that reputation. That's the only time that we want it. It is when we intentionally choose it. Other than that, nobody wants that reputation on purpose.
Bonny Snowdon 28:22
So when you were saying before, what tends to happen in the normal school setting? They'll talk about the behaviours they don't want. So that's the behaviour we don't want. This is the behaviour we do want you to have. And obviously that's particularly negative, because it's saying, you know, we don't like that, but we like this. What do you do that's different? Because obviously you want all of the children to recognize that absolutely, this is the reputation that you're wanting people to recognize in you. How do you put it across them that that's what you're doing there? That's kind of giving people a different idea of the reputation and actually what you could be doing is there. Is that just through these discussions then that you have?
Steph West 29:12
So it's a few different things. One of them primary focus is that it is very important to me that my kids recognize they can say and do whatever they want to. Even the things that we practice and that we role-play if you choose not to do that tomorrow, that's totally fine. I even joke with kids that, you can come lay on the floor for an hour if you want to. It just means there's a social consequence for that choice. That's all. So once kids realize that it's not compliance based, that they really can make their own choices, it's amazing how much more they buy into what we're talking about because there's nobody there making them do anything or requiring them to do anything. That's not how my program works. So then they become really interested in what it is that we are talking about. And my approach is, the curriculum is intended to teach kids the things that I have learned that my kids don't know, or don't know how to do. So I found all these things, it's 32 lessons, each lesson is about an hour, and we do one a week. So it's a year long program. Each lesson has things in it that I recognize the kids just don't understand. And so it's me explaining things to them.
So the example of correcting other people is the prime example. And so my intention is to help them understand that if you choose this, this is the likely social consequence. If you choose this, this is the likely social consequence. So A and B. You can do either one, it does not matter, you can do whichever one you want to, I just want to make sure that you know what the likely social consequence of that choice will be. To give a different example, a lot of times parents and teachers give kids really well-meaning advice when it comes to making friends. That's actually very counterproductive. So one example is somebody may say, "Well just go up and introduce yourself to those kids." That is not at all how social interactions work. Even as an adult, can you imagine going up to a group of people that you see, even say you're at an event for a hobby that you have, and just going up and being like, "Hey I'm Bonny."
Bonny Snowdon 31:45
Scary.
Steph West 31:46
That's right. That's not how social interactions work. And so some of what I do is undoing the things that other people have taught my kids. But that's another example of you can absolutely go up and introduce yourself, it's just most likely going to be awkward, and the other people are most likely going to feel a little bit weird about that. Or I teach kids how to find something they can start a conversation about. So if there's not a conversation happening, I teach them how to initiate a conversation. If there is a conversation happening, I teach them how to join in seamlessly. So you've got different choices, you can do whichever one you want to, I just teach you what the social outcomes will most likely be of each one. So if you want to walk up and introduce yourself, most likely, it's not going to go very well those people will probably socially avoid you. Or you can go up and listen to what the group is talking about. Make sure it's something that you also want to talk about, and find a place to make a comment about what the group is talking about, and then hang out and contribute and participate in that conversation. That's how natural social interactions work. And sometimes you're not accepted. Sometimes it doesn't work. That happens to everybody. But we don't walk up and say, "Hey, what are you guys talking about?" Because we just disrupted their entire conversation. So we don't do that. We don't even say "Oh, are you guys talking about Avengers?" Because we should already know what they're talking about.
We shouldn't join a conversation if we don't know what the group is talking about. Because then what are we contributing? So we should be listening on the periphery. And then when we realize, oh, I want to join that conversation. And then we wait for an appropriate opening and we make a comment. Because that question makes the whole conversation stop. And now we're an intruder into that conversation. But a comment helps us integrate into that conversation. We even talk about how to leave the conversation if you weren't accepted into the group, right? So it's teaching my kids things that they are not going to learn on their own. But also giving them the option of doing whatever they want to do. I have one student who she's eight or nine and her strategy was to go up to a group and just say something really off the wall. Hey, what do you think other kids thought about that? She was trying to be funny. That's not funny. When other kids are having a conversation, and she just goes up and says something really off the wall. That's not funny to them. And so the other part of my program is that I teach all the kids how to give each other social feedback.
So when she would do that with the kids in my program, they would say things to her like, "You're interrupting our conversation" or "I don't really think that's funny." They will give her feedback so that she can see, oh, they don't think that's funny. Oh, they think I'm interrupting. And then she can try to do something different. And so it's amazing how quickly she stopped doing that thing. And not because I told her not to do it, because I don't ever do that. But because the other kids were giving her feedback, instead of just ignoring her or instead of just being rude to her, they were actually telling her what she was doing that was giving her the reputation that she had. And then she had the instruction from our classes, to know what to do differently. And now she's incredibly engaged. She gets along with pretty much everybody, she can join a group, and she can join a conversation. It's a small shift. It's one thing that she started doing differently that's completely changed her reputation. One thing. But you see how she's just trying to be funny. That's all she's trying to do.
Bonny Snowdon 36:04
Yeah, I completely get it. And just listening to what you're saying. I guess we as humans, it's something that being neurotypical we just know, that's just how it is. It's like understanding when I've talked to my students about light and dark, it's like, we understand where the sun's coming from. When we look at a picture, we know that the light is hitting it here, and that's a shadow, we just get it. But then there's that side of things, that social cues. And I've never heard it put like that before, and it makes so much sense. But what an amazing thing to be doing and to be helping children. I know, my sister her children behaved relatively well at school. And then when they came home, she talks about them masking, so they put a mask on. And I feel I do that, for certain events. I'm quite an introverted person. If I went through a diagnosis, I probably will be diagnosed with ADHD. I'm always moving, I get really giddy, I'm just me. I don't put a label on myself. I'm just me. I'm sitting here at the moment, trying to think about what to say, and my feet are doing circles. For pain relief, my feet go round and round and round. When I was having my first son because well I tried to have him naturally. And the midwife was like, "What are you doing with your feet?" Just they have to go around, anyway. But she talks about her children masking.
So they would mask, they would be at school, they would interact, they would come home and because it was their safe space that's where the masks would come off. And they would be hideous. Do you find that? Because obviously, it's not a natural thing for these children to do, their way of being and communicating is how they naturally do it. Do you find that that then it's almost like an exhausting thing, it becomes exhausting to put these kinds of social masks on? Or do you find that because of this sort of, it's a very gentle way of doing it, and not forcing something onto them so they can make a choice. Do they find it easier then to be able to just use it as a strategy and that's okay?
Steph West 38:44
Yeah, I think there's so much pressure put on right and wrong, and put on what other people think about us. I mean, those are the big pressure. Doing what's right. And I even have kids in my program who will talk about being bad. Oh, I hate that so much. There's no such thing as being bad. There is no such thing. And I even have experienced kids who talk about their siblings being bad or other kids in the program being bad, because this is the language that's used. There's no such thing as a child being bad. I'm saying this as someone who used to have severe tantrums when I was a kid. Like climbing out of the car window. I used to have to be restrained when I was a child. I was never a bad child. And so that concept. I think, our kids are trying so hard to do what they have been told is right and is good. They're trying so hard to do that but even your example, sitting in a classroom for 45 minutes and not getting up and moving. Even one of the big things that I always tell my kids, everything that they think and feel is always okay. Everything they think and feel. If we're having class and somebody's not paying attention, guess what? That's okay. It is okay for you to not pay attention. Because nobody can pay attention all the time. If I say something, and you didn't hear me, that is okay. It's always okay to think and feel the way that we think and feel.
But our kids aren't getting that message, they're getting the message that they're supposed to sit still, they're supposed to wait, they're supposed to go to the bathroom at a specific time, they're supposed to wait their turn, and they're supposed to not interrupt other people. They're in a class of 24 kids, and they're supposed to wait for someone to help them when they didn't understand the instructions. It's just all of these signs that there's something wrong with them and they're different. And so at school, the kids who are more aware are trying really hard to not be different, and to not be bad, and to not be wrong. And the other thing is the older kids get, the more exposure they have to different people. So in the school system, the older you get, the more teachers you have. So in the US, and you start kindergarten, first second grade with one teacher, and then by the time you're in high school, you have seven. Every one of those teachers has different expectations of you, because they are different people with different brains. So maybe in one class, you can go to the bathroom whenever you want to. But in another class, you have to ask for permission. And in another class, that's not even an option. And then the same with kids. Maybe there's one kid you sit next to who always lets you borrow a pencil because you don't ever remember to bring your supplies. But there's another kid who doesn't even want you to talk to them. And then there's another kid where plays a game about it and makes you feel stupid.
So it's the more people you're exposed to, the more you're trying to hold in your brain, everybody's expectations of you. I'm exhausted just talking about that. That's part of why school is so difficult for our kids. And also school is set up to where in most content areas things are either right or wrong. In math, the answer is right or wrong, science and history. Really, the only exception to that is anything involving writing. Where you have more leeway over what you're writing. Grammar is right or wrong, foreign language, again, I could go on, but our kids aren't linear thinkers. And so we're trying to put their thinking in a box. They're not linear thinkers. When I had my school, my kids could do their math in any way they wanted to as long as they were getting the correct answer. So you don't have to follow the strategy that I teach you, if you have a different strategy, have at it. As long as you're getting the correct answer, then you can use your own strategy as much as you want to. And so I think there's definitely a lot of masking that goes on, because there's so many different expectations, but there's also just the sheer mental exhaustion of going through seven hours a day, trying to conform. Even if you're not masking, so just to clarify masking is when you're trying to pretend to be what you think other people want you to be, even if you're not doing that. It's exhausting. Going through a day where there's so much rigidity and things are right or wrong. And you're supposed to do what everybody else is doing and all of that. It's just mentally exhausting. I would say the biggest thing I can suggest to parents is, especially if you're a parent with a neurotypical brain, the biggest thing I can suggest to you is to do everything you can to make sure that your child feels like you understand them.
More important than anything else I can say is for your child to feel like you understand them, even if you don't understand them. But even when they're upset, just being compassionate. And man, it seems like you've had a really difficult day. I can tell that when I told you about that thing that was really frustrating to you, just being compassionate and really trying to understand your child. When I was a teenager, I had a lot of mental health challenges because of the way I showed up in the world. I always was really good in school, I had really great grades, I had friends and I could handle school. But I was described by my family as, how would they say, like a bratty teenager, because my moods were so all over the place. But even that shows me that my family did not understand me. Nobody is a bratty teenager. If you have a child who's argumentative, who's disruptive, who's having meltdowns, they are dysregulated. And they need someone who understands how they feel, and what they need. And when they feel like nobody understands how they feel, and what they need, they feel isolated, and they're going to act out. We are tribal creatures. And when we feel like we don't belong in our tribe, that really sets us up for a lot of cognitive dissonance and mental health challenges.
So just helping your kiddo feel like they belong with you as their parent in your home. Whatever the case may be that you're emotionally taking care of your child. The more dysregulated your child seems, the more they're acting out and shutting down. Whatever the case may be, the less they feel like they belong, and the less understood they feel. So that would be my number one suggestion for parents is to even if you don't understand your child, at least, try to understand them and help them see that you're trying to understand them. Because I think that's the biggest disconnect, is we already feel alone and isolated and different. And then in our own families, when we're getting punished. I was punished a lot as a child. And it's so counterproductive. It's so absolutely counterproductive. It actually really damages relationships and families when kids are punished for their emotions.
Bonny Snowdon 47:14
Yeah. And you were saying that you also have the support for the parents as well. I mean, my sister she was diagnosed with Asperger's, which has really helped her understand how she shows up in the world. And she's so much happier. But the support that she has, obviously, she has the support of her family. But it's really hard to be a mom or dad, particularly if you just don't get it. And I can't talk from experience, because I haven't had that experience. But I imagine that there are a lot of parents who don't have the support, and have no idea what to do.
Steph West 48:10
Parenting in so many cultures, like, American culture, I'm sure in your culture as well, you are expected to be in control of your child, that's the role of a parent. Is you are in charge of these children. That's such a dysfunctional way to view parenting. No adult was ever in control of me when I was a child. And all that happened was that when adults tried to be in control of me, it did not go well. And so parenting is seen as an adult having control over their offspring. And that's a very dysfunctional view. I am not a parent. So I don't want to pretend like I am, or speak like I am. But in my view, it's the same as being a teacher that your role is to support this child in being the best version of themselves. And it has nothing to do with you. It's not about your values, your beliefs, what you want for this child, it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with who this child came into this world to be. And how can you help them be the best. And so that means we're not punishing them. We're not being punitive or not. The child is not a reflection of the parent. So I very much feel that a lot of parents feel embarrassed or ashamed at the way that their kids act. Sometimes I have parents apologize to me for something their child did. Oh, no. Your child is not a reflection of you.
Yes, there are things we could be saying and doing that are not helping the situation. Absolutely. But your child is not a reflection of the fact that you're a crummy parent, that's not how that works. Your child is who they are. I was going to say is who they is. So there's things we can do that support them. And there's things that we can do that don't. But it's not about us. We are a guide in the life of our children. We're not here to make them do or not do certain things. We are here to guide them and to support them. And so I think one strategy that I suggest to parents, if they're getting really emotionally involved with their kids, is to pretend like this is not your child. Pretend like this is somebody else's child that you are taking care of for the day. And how would you respond if somebody else's child said or did what your child just said or did? It takes a lot of the emotionality out of it. I was a foster parent for a little while, and I found I was super emotional when my foster kiddo would say, or do all the things he said or did because I felt attached to that. It absolutely nothing to do with me. This kid had so many parents before he even made it to me. So yeah, just detaching from the emotionality and seeing yourself as, how can you best support your child in becoming who they're on their way to become?
Bonny Snowdon 51:26
I mean, I have three. So I'm a mom of three and mine are older now. And actually, I think my three they were pretty easy children really. We had the teenage tantrums, we had the terrible twos, all that kind of stuff. I do think it takes a very special person, though to take your word that we are here to kind of just support and guide them and everything. For me, I think we just get so wrapped up in work, in home and relationships and all of that kind of thing. And actually, we don't live in a perfect world, do we? And there are parents who do do that. But there are an awful lot who, including me, I know when I first became a monk, I had no idea what to do. And I naturally brought my children up how I felt was the right way. And they have turned into three incredible adults. I'm so proud of my three. I'm so proud of them. I can't say that it's because of how I bought them up, because I don't think it was. I think in an ideal world, that's how we would love to bring our children up. But of course, there are all these different factors, and then throw into the mix if you have a child who has a different way than you. It can be so hard. But I think having some kind of guidance, having somebody like you, there should be more people like you. And of course you're doing that. You're helping people set up these, what do you call them? You don't call them groups, do you?
Steph West 53:29
I call them a club, a social club. Yeah.
Bonny Snowdon 53:33
I mean, how amazing would that be?
Steph West 53:39
I think, part of the challenge of parenting and teaching. When I was teaching, I had a class of kids who weren't able to be in mainstream because of their behaviour. That was the kids that I had. We think so much about what other people think about us as parents and teachers even. That if somebody sees my kid doing that, what are they going to think about me or sees my child, my student, my whatever. It's so cultural to get caught up in our students, our kids being a reflection of us, when really, they're not at all. They are who they are. But yeah, I definitely agree. I think because of my own upbringing, it's become more and more important to me to support parents. And the thing about all of us, everybody in the whole wide world, we are all doing the best we can. Every child is doing the best they can. Every parent is doing the best they can, every teacher, we are all doing the best we can. And I think it's Maya Angelou, who says, you know, when you know better, you can do better. So I think it's just a matter of learning about different strategies, different things you can try, different things that you can do, but there's nothing that parents or teachers are doing that's wrong, unless they're hurting their child. But we're all doing the best we can. There's nothing that anybody's doing that's wrong.
There's just kind of like what I say to the kids, there's this strategy that leads to this outcome and there's this strategy that leads to that outcome. I mean, that's really as simple as it gets. And so it’s deciding what is the outcome that you want? And what is the strategy that's most likely to get you that outcome? That's, that's kind of how I see things. Okay, where am I trying to go with this? There's plenty, I have up to 15 kids at a time in my club, and all neurodivergent, all saying and doing their own stuff. And so there's all kinds of situations that happen. And I just think about, okay, what's the outcome that I want? And what's the way that's most likely to make that happen? But I'm also a long term person. So I'm not ever trying to stop this situation in the moment, I'm trying to think of how can I keep it from happening again? So right now, it's going to be whatever it's going to be, but how can I make sure that that doesn't happen again? Whether it's a kiddo not knowing how to join a group and just floundering around on his own or the girl who's saying jokes to try to get into combat, how can I help her do that differently next time. So I think we also tend to get in crisis management. But that keeps us reliving.
It's like Groundhog Day. We're reliving the same thing over and over and over every time that happens, instead of thinking, how can I keep that from happening again, next time? What does my child not know that if I can teach them, it will help them be more successful with that next time? I have a kiddo who last year was in an after school program, and in her after school program that it was just recess. I mean, they were just running around on the playground. And every day she was getting in trouble. And what I realized by talking to her is that she was getting really overstimulated. So she's very social. She's running around, she's talking to everybody. She's playing all the games. And then she just gets overstimulated, and she starts pushing and just being overly silly, but she can't control herself anymore.
So she and I talked about, okay, is that what you want? Do you want to keep getting in trouble every day? No, obviously not. So I helped her recognize that she was getting overstimulated. And then we talked about what she could do instead. And she said, there were a group of kids that just go to the library after school and do their homework. And so I said, "Would you prefer to do that?" Of course, she wouldn't prefer to do that. But when she's able to look long term, and realize that that's going to keep her from getting in trouble every day, she was willing to make that choice. So there's nothing I can do on a day to day basis, aside from like, following her around and holding her arms. But I can help her see what's happening, and help her make a decision for the long term. I feel like I'm right. This part of my ADHD that I just ramble sometimes.
Bonny Snowdon 58:15
No, you're not rambling. I think it's not fascinating. It's what we all should know. We should know, this, we should know. But we don't. And I think we are so caught up in all of the stuff and we don't take the time to find out. That's why it's wonderful for me to speak to all of these different people and find out what you do, how you do, and how important it is, and the changes you're helping to make to so many lives. I think it's absolutely wonderful. I think it's amazing.
Steph West 59:01
Thank you.
Bonny Snowdon 59:01
Oh, goodness, we have been talking for an hour. I'm not sure whether it was lucky. I was hoping the cat was going to come up and make a little tail.
Steph West 59:15
I think she's over it now.
Bonny Snowdon 59:19
Oh, goodness. Thank you so much Steph for joining me. It's been really insightful. And these conversations give me a whole different. They're just teach me so much and I love that. And it is really, really important that we talk about these sorts of things. And we find out what is available, because we're all different. We all need different sort of support and all of that kind of stuff. And it is really, really important what you're doing. So, I'm so happy that we got to chat.
Steph West 59:55
Me too.
Bonny Snowdon 59:56
Yeah. So thank you so much. Thank you for taking your time out to talk to me and I want to say it's been brilliant because it has. It has been really, really nice to speak to you. Thank you ever so much and hopefully we'll get to chat again soon.
Steph West 1:00:14
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Bonny.
Bonny Snowdon 1:00:16
Awesome. All right, then. Thanks there.
Steph West 1:00:19
Okay. Bye.
Bonny Snowdon 1:00:21
Bye. I really hope you enjoyed listening to this episode of my It's a Bonny Old Life podcast. If you did, I'd be so grateful to you for emailing me or texting a link to the show, or sharing it on social media with those who might like it too. My mission with this podcast is all about sharing mine and my communities experience and hope by telling your fascinating personal stories, championing the other amazing humans in my personal, professional and membership community, and to create another channel through which I can support you to realize your coloured pencil and life dreams. If you haven't done so yet. Please help me on my mission to spread positivity and joy throughout the coloured pencil world by following me on my socials at Bonny Snowdon Academy, or by getting on my list at bonnysnowdonacademy.com, and remember, I truly believe if I can live the life of my dreams doing what I love, then you can too. We just need to keep championing and supporting each other along the way in order to make it happen. Till next time.
